Are stars signs or causes? The southern hemisphere experiment

Since the beginning astrology was never either a block of consistent techniques or it was founded on the same philosophical background.

The art of the astrologer is – like in Plotinus reading signs in the book of the sky?

Looking at stars like they would be fonts, the ones who know their grammar, recognise the future from the groups they form. ((Plotinus, Enneads, III,1,6))

In 1477 Marsilio Ficino will write:

The sky is sign of many events, without being the cause.

That the sky can show many events without causing it, it’s evident from the fact that evil, without any order, can derive  from  very good and ordered realities. So these things are foretold according celestial positions, intended as signs and not as causes, not differently from other events, that don’t happen because of birds, but they are read by augurs and haruspices as shown by birds. (( Marsilio Ficino, Scritti sull’astrologia (cura Ornella Pompeo Faracovi) Milano: Biblioteca universale Rizzoli, 1999.))

Or  maybe astrology is a part of astronomical knowledge, a sort of “practical astronomy”  which investigates on the effects of the stars as a book of some fortune declared  beginning from its title.

THAT a certain power, derived from the æthereal nature, is diffused over and pervades the whole atmosphere of the earth, is clearly evident to all men. Fire and air, the first of the sublunary elements, are encompassed and altered by the motions of the æther. These elements in their turn encompass all inferior matter, and vary it as they themselves are varied; acting on earth and water, on plants and animals.

The Sun, always acting in connection with the Ambient, contributes to the regulation of all earthly things: not only by the revolution of the seasons does he bring to perfection the embryo of animals, the buds of plants, the spring of waters, and the alteration of bodies, but by his daily progress also he operates other changes in light, heat, moisture, dryness and cold; dependent upon his situation with regard to the zenith.

The Moon, being of all the heavenly bodies the nearest to the Earth, also dispenses much influence; and things animate and inanimate sympathize and vary with her. By the changes of her illumination, rivers swell and are reduced; the tides of the sea are ruled by her risings and settings; and plants and animals are expanded or collapsed, if not entirely at least partially, as she waxes or wanes.

The stars likewise (as well the fixed stars as the planets), in performing their revolutions, produce many impressions on the Ambient. They cause heats, winds, and storms, to the influence of which earthly things are conformably subjected.

And, further, the mutual configurations of all these heavenly bodies, by commingling the influence with which each is separately invested, produce a multiplicity of changes. The power of the Sun however predominates, because it is more generally distributed; the others either co-operate with his power or diminish its effect: the Moon more frequently and more plainly performs this at her conjunction, at her first and last quarter, and at her opposition: the stars act also to a similar purpose, but at longer intervals and more obscurely than the Moon; and their operation principally depends upon the mode of their visibility, their occultation and their declination. (( Tetrabiblos, I, 2))

In this case the study of the stars and their motion,  especially of the Sun which is predominant in influencing life on Earth,  puts together without any possibility to divide them, physic and astrology.

The question, which divided astrologers in two different groups, and often  mixed several different approaches in  strange ways, is not a theoretical one, because implies which techniques inside astrology could be used and which not, which are “true” and which not.

An example of the fact that the question has deep consequences can be “the Southern hemisphere experiment.

What about the birth charts of all the millions of people who are born in the Southern hemisphere?  If astrology depends on the physical motion of the planets,  especially of the Sun, we should do some interesting considerations on the base of some very beautiful articles written by Joe Fallisi for the International Congress of Venice organised by CIDA in 1997 and published in CieloeTerra site, Maradona e l’emisfero australe and the one by Lucia Bellizia, L’emisfero sud.

It’s evident that casting a chart for a native of the Southern hemisphere implies turning upside down everything we are accustomed here, it means celebrating Christmas in summer and starting school with spring (or they start in their autumn with Easter? I don’t know) because seasons are reversed.  Better said, what is different is the fact that while here in Europe we start spring when the Sun crosses the Aries point (one of the two intersections of the equator with the ecliptic;  the other, opposite, is called  Libra point ), on the other side of the Earth  autumn starts.

If stars are just signs in the sky written in a language we need just to know  the grammar, and we can agree with Morin that:

We should admit that astrology was not invented by human beings,  at least about what pertains to its main principles, and in the same way the division of the Primum Caelum, by its nature very easy and uniform, in twelve dodecatemoria of different nature, which correspond to the nature of planets. Or the division  of the mundane space in twelve houses, of different nature too. These things are in fact above the intelligence of the human mind, and in fact they were infused by God in Adam, from whom they arrived to his posterity through Qabbalah. ((Morin, as quoted in Lucia Bellizia))

If we are skeptic about the fact astrology was infused in Adam together with the soul, and prefer a more rational approach to the question, natural philosophers as Cardano and Campanella solved the question, considering the possibility of turning upside  down the zodiac for Southern births.

In fact   qualities of the seasons depend on the Sun and its motion on the ecliptic: heat will increase in spring, dryness in summer, coldness in autumn and moisture in winter  ((see Bezza, Le virtù della Luna)),  it’s this that makes zodiacal signs, the combination of these qualities.

This was obvious for Ptolemy’s followers, because in Tetrabiblos signs are nothing else than portions of the ecliptic, and qualities of the signs depends on the Sun: Aries is just the first 30 degrees after the start of the Spring, Taurus the second 30 degrees and so on…

It’s the same Morin who quotes – shocked- in the book 15 of Astrologia Gallica the solution found by Girolamo Cardano in his Comment to Tetrabiblos and then Tommaso Campanella,  “the great corrupter of the sciences” 🙂

Morin in fact – I should say – is the kind of astrologer who spends his time correcting others’ mistakes, without thinking to his  funny own ones, as some modern traditional astrologers 😦  it should be the Jupiterian influence.

I marvel that Cardano has fallen in his Commentary with these words : ‘From this it finally follows that in the southern half (of the World) Capricom will be the domicile ot the Moon and Aquarius of the Sun. Pisces and Sagittarius of Mercury. Aries and Scorpio of Venus. Taurus and Libra of Mars. Gemini and Virgo of Jupiter. and Cancer and Leo of Saturn.’
but Campanella, the great corrupter of the sciencees which I would like to have stated as a caution to those who take delight in his books that are full of novelties) amplified Cardans error in his astrology book I. Chapter 3. Article 3, where he offers this:

‘The early astrologers, only considered our latitudes: and therefore the Spaniards who established colonies beyond the  tropic of Capricorn have need of a new astrology.’ Moreover, in Chapter 6. Article 3. he says: “It is not a symbol for the Planets, with certain Signs of the Caelum but to those who dwell beyond the equator, equidistant with us from the equator, to have the domicile of  the Planets in an opposite location—and the domicile of the Sun is in Aquarius, the domicile of the Moon in Capricorn,  of Saturn in Cancer and Leo, and the domiciles of the rest of them as above.’ (( Jean-Baptiste Morin  (cura James Herschel Holden), Astrologia Gallica Books 13, 14, 15, 19 (American Federation of Astr, 2007).))

So following the traditional approach indicated by Cardano and Campanella  for Southern hemisphere births we could invert the table of dignities, or which is the same inverting signs: saying that a native is born in Aries but with a Sun in its fall or born in Libra it’s exactly the same.

Let’s give a quick look to Diego Armando Maradona, the famous  soccer champion taken from Fallisi’ article: I believe there is no example which can show better if turning or not the chart.

This is the usual chart:

Diego Armando Maradona, 30th October 1960,  Buenos Aires h:7:05 am
Diego Armando Maradona, 30th October 1960, Buenos Aires h:7:05 am

Scorpio is rising at the Ascendant – but Scorpio we know makes people tall, because we know from Centiloquium that

52. The lords of the genitures of men of tall stature are in their sublimities, and their horoscopes in the beginnings of signs: but the lords of their nativities who are of short stature, are found in their falls: together with this, enquire whether the signs be of right or oblique ascension.

and Scorpio is a sign of long ascension, at least in the Northern hemisphere.

It does not fit with Maradona appearance as we know,

Maradona kg 65, m.1.68
Maradona kg 65, m.1.68 in his best moment

Mars, ruler of the Ascendant is in fall in Cancer in the ninth house. So the ruler of the Ascendant is in very bad condition;  here  between the three planets which indicates profession – Mars, Venus, and Mercury- Mars  is the only planet oriental to the Sun, while  the peregrine Venus is vespertine  in the first house, and the MC is in Venus terms, so both of them, Mars in fall and the peregrine Venus have some words to say about activities .

It’s hard to think to a soccer champion like Maradona, true?

Or like some astrologers say Mars in Cancer pushes the native to overcome his limit, because every sign  turns into its opposite,  but this  does not sound so traditional to me…..

Now let’s reverse the chart, according Campanella and Cardano, in the method rediscovered by CieloeTerra, the traditional Italian astrology association.

The chart is cast with Explorer, the Italian software in use in the Italian CIDA:  in practice planets and houses cusps are simply reversed, but the author of the software put the Ascendant on the right to stress the fact it is a chart for the Southern hemisphere.

While with Morin method now in use in practice we add 12 hours to the Sidereal time and then reverse the cusps corresponding to the new  time, here simply we don’t reverse the cusps and we have:

the same chart with reverted signs
the same chart with reverted signs

So at this point Taurus is rising, and Taurus, a sign of short ascension, makes natives short. The ruler of the Ascendant is Venus, in the first house.

Taurus is well known for being a lover of food, women, and all Venusian pleasures, in Tommaso Campanella words, from Fallisi article:

makes men prone to pleasures, sophisticated in choosing food, elegant in dressing and recreation, like Neapolitans.

And it would be a coincidence, but there is no Naples without Maradona, and Maradona without Naples, it’s difficult to explain what was Maradona for Naples for people who don’t know Italian things.

In my opinion here it’s easier to see the ruler of activities.

Planets keep their position in respect with the Sun; so Mars, now is in its exaltation in Capricorn, is still oriental to the Sun. The cusp of MC, now falls at 9 Aquarius, Saturn domicile, so Mars, oriental to the Sun and in its exaltation is in aspect with the ruler of the MC: there is no doubt that in the reverted chart, Mars is very explicative.

While recommending  again to read the articles in bibliography below, we can come back to Morin. Strongly convinced that signs are immutable in any part on Earth, and that signs, as parts of Primum Caelum, are formally of the same nature among themselves because they are of the same stuff as the entire Caelum, which is homogeneneous,  ((Astrologia Gallica, XIV, 7))  he gives an example chart in the 15th book.

Morin example of southern birth
Morin example of a southern birth

Writes Morin:

Francisco Gomez Cortez, born on the 4th of the month of October in the year 1627, called the day of St. Francis, at the rising of the Sun at Olinda Pernambuco.,8 degrees on the other side of the equator. He was inclined to painting. arithmetic, music, dances, and the gladiatorial arts; and yet he followed the military calling from his youth. He has many yellowish marks on his face, hands, and body, which are called Jewish signs: he also has reddish hair; and he had a quarrel with someone whom, while not wanting to, he nevertheless killed.

how Morin  explains the military  attitude  of the native considering that Libra is rising in this chart?

His propensity was to arithmetic, writing, painting, music, and dancing since Venus ruler of the ASC is in the domicile of Mercury and joined to it .  These things however, would no have been if Venus had not been ruler of the  ASC; therefore Libra is the domicile of Venus and Virgo is the domicile of Mercury But if they had been inverted in the southern part (of the World), Mars would have been the ruler of the ASC in a domicile of Jupiter, from which the iiwlination given above could not have been produced as is sufficiently plain from the nature of the Planets, which agree with their Signs, as is proved with reasons in its own place, in addition to the experience that is very well known to all astrologers.
In addition he followed the gladiatorial and military (profession) since Mars, ruler of the 1st house (this is not true,  because Libra is rising…..). which is the house of character on account of Scorpio in the 1st and then ruler of the 7th, (in Aries,  the Ascendant according Cardano method) which is quarrels, and Mars is in the  8th conjunct the Eye of Taurus, a bright and violent fixed star of the natue of Mars….Finally. hecause this native had reddish hair and had freckles on his face, hands, and body, he had that from the Sun in the ASC in trine to Mars, ruler of the 1st (again, Venus is the ruler of Libra which is rising at the Ascendant, not Mars) joined to the eye of Taurus, a fixed Martian star, in trine to the ASC, then from the square of the Moon to Saturn and the Sun on the Ascendant. Everything therefore agrees…

Maybe, but how much it would agree better with an Aries Ascendant?

As always comments and opinions are well accepted,

Written by Margherita Fiorello, CIDA certified member, for heaven astrolabe blog @ year 2009. If you want to be notified the next time I write something, subscribe to my RSS feed.


Giuseppe Bezza, Commento al Primo Libro della Tetrabiblos di Claudio Tolemeo: con una nuova traduzione e le interpretazioni dei maggiori commentatori (cura Giuseppe Bezza), 2° ed. (Milano: Nuovi Orizzonti, 1992).

Joe Fallisi, Maradona e l’emisfero australe

Lucia Bellizia, L’emisfero sud

Giancarlo Ufficiale, Appendice all’emisfero sud.


5 thoughts on “Are stars signs or causes? The southern hemisphere experiment

  1. I read some comments about my article in another site, a shy reader….

    He says that – if I well understand, it would be better if he would write directly here, that in traditional texts like Firmicus it is Mercury which makes athletes.

    If he wrote here I would reply that yes, it’s because for Firmicus, as in Manilius, paranatellonta give the quality of signs and profession.

    And with Gemini there arises Lepus…

    Still in Maradona chart, Mercury is the only planet could not act as a significator of profession: it’s retrograde and invisible.

    And according medieval and renaissance commentators this condition cannot do the activity, rather the inclination.

    But Maradona was one of the greatest soccer champions of all the time, like Pelè, how we could call it an inclination?
    Willing or not we are obliged to discard Mercury.

    Hope next time the shy reader would write here, I’m always opened to comments,

  2. As a practicing traditional astrologer who lives in the Southern Hemisphere I often think about this issue myself. You may therefore be surprised that I agree entirely with Morin in that we should definitely NOT go ahead and invert the zodiac for the Southern Hemisphere. Of course I am biased to this view because like Morin I am a student of the Kabbalah and have a firm belief that astrology is indeed a revealed science (see for example the story of Harut and Marut in the Holy Q’uran, 2:102). But there are some more “rational” reasons for those who need them, with which I can hopefully make a good case for maintaining the traditional order of the signs regardless of the hemisphere we are in. We should probably remember that, according to Richard Dawkins, all astrologers are “enemies of reason” so perhaps these rationalizations are out of character for folks like us! 😉

    The best “rational” argument for not inverting the zodiac is as follows: We all know that in traditional textbooks the signs from Cancer through to Sagittarius are signs of Right Ascension and the signs from Capricorn to Gemini are called the signs of Oblique Ascension. We all know that the signs of Right Ascension are called the signs of Long Ascension because they rise slowly in the northern hemisphere, and the signs of Oblique ascension are called the signs of Short Ascension because they rise rapidly. But why is this so?

    Mathematically/astronomically speaking it is because in the northern hemisphere, the signs of Right Ascension contain LESS degrees of Right Ascension than they do of Oblique Ascension, and the signs of Oblique Ascension contain LESS degrees of Oblique Ascension than they do of Right Ascension. This is the mathematical explanation for why the rising times are the way they are.

    For example, in 1981 AD, at 40 degrees North latitude, the sign of Aries (a sign of Oblique Ascension) contains 18.6 degrees of Oblique Ascension compared with 27.55 degrees of Right Ascension. By comparison, at the same latitude, Cancer the first sign of Right Ascension contains 35.35 degrees of Oblique Ascension compared with 32.11 degrees of Right Ascension. So far so good.

    The argument for inverting the zodiac is that in the southern hemisphere the reverse is true – the signs we traditionally call those of Right Ascension in fact have MORE degrees of Right Ascension than Oblique, so should be renamed the signs of Oblique Ascension. For example in 1981 AD at 40 degrees Southern latitude, Aries contains 37.43 degrees of Oblique Ascension as opposed to 27.55 degrees of Right Ascension. Likewise the Spring Equinox in the southern hemisphere is the Autumn Equinox. From a rational perspective this means that Aries should be a sign of Right Ascension we should consider inverting the zodiac, right? Well, it’s not that simple 🙂

    The downfall of all this talk is the important question, “What happens at the equator?” If our poor native is unfortunate enough to be born exactly on the equator, we have an interesting scenario. At 0 degrees latitude, all of the zodiac signs have an Oblique Ascension exactly equal to their Right Ascension. Are the signs now to be considered ALL signs of Right Ascension or ALL signs of Oblique Ascension? Or are they ALL of neither Right nor Oblique Ascension? Also, on the equator the length of day is always the same, all year around – the sun rises and sets in 12 hours. So where is the Spring Equinox? Where should 0 Degrees Aries be? And while this scenario is not common, there must be at least some people in the world who are born at 0 degrees latitude (probably more than we think likely!). If we are going to persist in applying our fallible human rationality to the zodiac, the equator proves to be a really big problem to astrologers.

    In this situation, we have two choices: choice number one is to use our so-called rationality and say that because of the mathematics, all 12 signs are neither of Right Ascension or Oblique Ascension, or else they are all BOTH Right and Oblique at the same time. This seems ridiculous and makes astrology on the equator near-impossible. Or we can go beyond the limits of rationality (into the “supra-rational”) and say that the signs from Cancer through to Sagittarius are still, and always will be, the signs of Long Ascension, regardless of the mathematics. If we choose the former “rational” approach, we basically cannot use astrology to judge the lives of people born on the equator. If we choose the second “supra-rational” approach, we can still use astrology to judge the lives of people born on the equator. We have a choice of either abandoning astrology at the equator, as though the middle of the world has a sort of “astrological immunity”, or maintaining that astrology works the
    same no matter where you happen to be born. And if you have any faith in the plausibility of astrology, you will know which to choose.

    Now, as I stated above I have been practicing traditional astrology in the southern hemisphere for several years now and I have always found the traditional zodiac to work just fine. I have had some remarkable successes using horary astrology that would be impossible if I had inverted the zodiac.

    For instance, I cast a horary chart for a client who was asking about his financial situation. The chart was cast for 15 February 2009 at 4:52 pm, latitude 35.23.40 South, longitude 149.4.7 East. I invite you to cast the chart if you want to check it for yourself. Now, upon reading this chart I told the client that it showed their partner had recently died and that this was causing him financial problems. Note that I did not know his partner was dead, the information is contained only in the chart. In the chart, we have Leo on the 2nd house cusp, Capricorn on the 7th house cusp and Aquarius on the 8th house cusp. The Sun rules the 2nd house (finances), and is afflicted by being inside Aquarius (the sign of his Detriment) and inside the 8th house, the house of death. Also, the Part of Fortune is at 15 Pisces, in opposition to Saturn, who rules the 7th house (partners) and 8th house (death) in the chart. Saturn is also located inside the 2nd house of finances. Jupiter, the dispositor
    of the Part of Fortune, sits within 5 degrees of the 8th house cusp. My client was astonished when I told him this and confirmed that his wife had indeed been dead for some time and that her passing was still causing him a lot of financial problems!

    Now if we inverted the zodiac for this chart as Cardano and Campanella suggest then none of this information would have been available to me. The 7th house sign would have been Cancer, and the 8th house sign would have been Leo and I would not have been able to make this highly accurate judgement. I could supply many more examples such as this one.

    I should also point out that your quote from the Centiloquium is actually equally supportive of a 28 degree Scorpio ascendant, if we accept your interpretation of “Lord of the Geniture” as meaning “Lord of the Ascendant” (which is not a given, see Lilly’s differing opinion on the subject at Christian Astrology Book 3, chapter 105). For ease of argument I will accept your interpretation, so from here on I will refer to the “Lord of the Geniture” as “Lord of the Ascendant” with some reservations. It is worth quoting the aphorism again for ease of reference:

    “52. The lords of the genitures of men of tall stature are in their sublimities, and their horoscopes in the beginnings of signs: but the lords of their nativities who are of short stature, are found in their falls: together with this, enquire whether the signs be of right or oblique ascension.”

    This aphorism can be broken down into 4 separate points, in order as they appear: 1) Tall men have their lord of the ascendant in “sublimities” which means essential dignities. So strong planets mean tall and weak planets mean short. 2) Tall men will have their horoscope (ie Ascending degree) in the beginning of signs. 3) Short men have the lord of the ascendant in the sign of that planet’s fall. 4) The rising sign being a sign of right ascension indicates a tall man, a sign of oblique ascension indicates a short man.

    Now we can probably also agree that in each of these cases the inverse is true, for example in the case of 1) if a tall man’s Lord of the Ascendant is well-dignified then ispo facto a short man will have the Lord of the Ascendant poorly-dignified. Likewise in the case of 2), if an early ascendant means a tall person then a late ascendant means a short person etc etc.

    So, to my argument. Let’s look at this carefully using firstly a Scorpio ascendant and then the “inverted” chart with a Taurus ascendant.

    SCORPIO ASCENDANT: Point 1) – Mars is quite poorly dignified by being in the sign of his fall, which means the native will be short. Point 2) – 28 degrees of Scorpio rises, this is a very late ascendant, so the native will be short. Point 3) – Mars is in Cancer, the sign of his fall, so this again means the native will be short. Point 4) Scorpio is a sign of long ascension, so this means the native will be tall.

    So out of 4 points, we have 3 for short and only one for tall.

    TAURUS ASCENDANT: Point 1) – Venus is poorly-dignified by being Peregrine, which argues for shortness. Point 2) – 28 degrees rises, so again an argument for shortness. In this instance an inverted zodiac doesn’t make much difference! Point 3) – Here Venus is not in the sign of her fall. This argues for a normal or tall height, but not short! Point 4) Taurus is a sign of short ascension, so the native will be short.

    Again we see 3 out of 4 arguments for shortness, only one for tallness.

    So in this case inverting the zodiac doesn’t seem to make much of a difference – each way we get 3 out of 4. And because the Scorpio ascendant still indicates shortness, and we needn’t stray from the tradition to produce this result, I am definitely inclined to stick to the traditional ascription of the signs which I have used throughout my practice.

    The issue of Maradona having a weak Lord of the Ascendant is interesting but he certainly won’t be the first or last successful person to have a weakened planet as the lord of his rising sign. It seems to me a better indicator of career would be to look to the 10th house, and to the Sun, as Lilly explains in Christian Astrology Book 3 Chapter 144. In fact seeing the Sun in the 12th house seems to make sense to me given the way that Maradona ruined his career by self-destructive choices such as drug abuse – not that I wish to cast aspersions on a truly great man and a hero to many. I will confess that natal astrology is not my strong point – I tend to stick more to horary with my clients because it produces precise results that are easily verified, like my above example.

    I hope that I have made a convincing case for maintaining the traditional zodiac in the southern hemisphere. I certainly do not want to argue with you about this – I admit I am a student of astrology and far from a master, and the last thing I want is to make an enemy of you. I merely want to point out some of the ideas I have on this important matter because, living in the Southern Hemisphere, this issue is very important to me!

    I hope we can remain friendly because traditional astrologers need to stick together, and having only just started my own website I need online friends 😉 I would also like to say that I have found your blog very interesting, and downloaded your .pdf of Astrolabium Planum with glee! Thank you for maintaining such an informative and interesting blog, I will definitely be returning here in the future.

    Sincerely and with the greatest respect,

    Robert Bailey, Student in Astrology.

  3. Here is the image of the horary chart mentioned above:

    I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me to do this earlier! In my defence I’m a little bit sleepy 🙂

    – Robert Bailey, Student in Astrology

  4. Thanks very much for the long reply, and surely i don’t hate people because they don’t invert Southern Zodiac….

    Writing from Europe, the question is little more than theoretical for me, I would lie in saying the contrary.

    Moreover I understand that Maradona chart – taken from a wonderful example by Joe Fallisi which is listed in my bibliography- works because we know this a priori.

    About Maradona significator of trade, in the example is chosen according Lilly, ie according Claudius Ptolemaus, of which Lilly was just a commentator, as the greater part of Renaissance and post Renaissance authors. And in fact Lilly mentions all the known story of the significator chosen between Mercury, Venus and Mars, page 625 of Christian Astrology III.

    The problem with signs as in Ptolemy is that signs are just portions of ecliptics, the first from Spring equinox should be hot and dry, the second hot and moist and so on, because they depend on the Sun quality of light.

    And obviously in the Southern hemisphere you start Spring on the 23 September…. As Campanella did, you can call the next sign Libra, but it is not hot and moist any more, it is hot and dry.

    I guess for the Equator no one of the two methods could be used, because they don’t have seasons as we have in the temperate zone.

    But in every case I don’t have a definitive word about this subject, (as for nothing) because here we are in the Northern side.

    I hope you liked Astrolabium Planum; it’s is very beautiful and I like very much too.

    Hope to see you again,


  5. well, I should admit I would be uncomfortable in switching horaries- not just yours.
    An horary chart is different from a nativity, because the former is based more on houses while in the latter we can use general significators.

    Anyway obviously we cannot use a different method, I understand this.

    I’m lucky I never have this kind of problems 🙂


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